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	<title>Comments on: MW2008 - Search</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/</link>
	<description>Just another Walker Blogs weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 03:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Giv Parvaneh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-543</link>
		<dc:creator>Giv Parvaneh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 14:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-543</guid>
		<description>Hi Nate,



This is a great post and there are some really interesting discussions here. I wanted to put in my 2 cents in regards to the federated search issue. I recently wrote an article on how one might attempt to efficiently go about doing a search across museums, "&lt;a href="http://www.givp.org/2008/05/02/we-have-opensearch-now-what/" rel="nofollow"&gt;We have OpenSearch, now what?&lt;/a&gt;". Some folks here may find it interesting/useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nate,</p>
<p>This is a great post and there are some really interesting discussions here. I wanted to put in my 2 cents in regards to the federated search issue. I recently wrote an article on how one might attempt to efficiently go about doing a search across museums, &#8220;<a href="http://www.givp.org/2008/05/02/we-have-opensearch-now-what/" rel="nofollow">We have OpenSearch, now what?</a>&#8220;. Some folks here may find it interesting/useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Solas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-545</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Solas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-545</guid>
		<description>Looks like Google's been reading this blog and is going to start &lt;a href="http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/04/crawling-through-html-forms.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;trying to crawl the "Deep Web"&lt;/a&gt; - pages behind forms, or in this case: collection items behind search pages.  This could start to solve a lot of issues museums are wrestling with...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like Google&#8217;s been reading this blog and is going to start <a href="http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/04/crawling-through-html-forms.html" rel="nofollow">trying to crawl the &#8220;Deep Web&#8221;</a> - pages behind forms, or in this case: collection items behind search pages.  This could start to solve a lot of issues museums are wrestling with&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-550</link>
		<dc:creator>Mia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-550</guid>
		<description>@Nate - I'm hoping to push our metadata through a few schemas, because we have to send records to a site with a really limited/general DC simple schema (sorta exposed through their search at http://www.peoplesnetwork.gov.uk/discover/showAdvancedSearchPage.do) but also want to express object records through our core and various project schemas in qualified DC as well as providing GeoRSS or whatever where the data supports it.



I should be able to give you a link in a few weeks, though the details will be a work in progress for a while longer.  I'll see if I can share our core schema too, though it's particular to our collections and digitisation projects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Nate - I&#8217;m hoping to push our metadata through a few schemas, because we have to send records to a site with a really limited/general DC simple schema (sorta exposed through their search at <a href="http://www.peoplesnetwork.gov.uk/discover/showAdvancedSearchPage.do" rel="nofollow">http://www.peoplesnetwork.gov.uk/discover/showAdvancedSearchPage.do</a>) but also want to express object records through our core and various project schemas in qualified DC as well as providing GeoRSS or whatever where the data supports it.</p>
<p>I should be able to give you a link in a few weeks, though the details will be a work in progress for a while longer.  I&#8217;ll see if I can share our core schema too, though it&#8217;s particular to our collections and digitisation projects.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Solas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-549</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Solas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-549</guid>
		<description>@Mia - I agree about OAI keeping things fast for search since it's all local.  Also I think there's a lot more "semantic" (or text-mined fakery) data that can be pulled out if all the metadata is in a central spot - relationships can be spotted that would be lost in a federated OpenSearch model.  Still, a lot to be said for the ease of use in the latter.



How are you describing the metadata in OAI?  We're using CDWAlite for our works of art, and a qualified DC for everything else, but it feels a bit like we're cheating on some of the fields...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mia - I agree about OAI keeping things fast for search since it&#8217;s all local.  Also I think there&#8217;s a lot more &#8220;semantic&#8221; (or text-mined fakery) data that can be pulled out if all the metadata is in a central spot - relationships can be spotted that would be lost in a federated OpenSearch model.  Still, a lot to be said for the ease of use in the latter.</p>
<p>How are you describing the metadata in OAI?  We&#8217;re using CDWAlite for our works of art, and a qualified DC for everything else, but it feels a bit like we&#8217;re cheating on some of the fields&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-544</link>
		<dc:creator>Mia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-544</guid>
		<description>Good write-up!



I'm in the middle of implementing an OAI repository so this is all really relevant (and my ramblings aren't yet coherent).  The repository is a requirement from an external funder, but I'm hoping to use it to get lots of cool stuff in place at the same time.  I want it to also serve OpenSearch results, and to act as an index to every instance of our objects in various online projects.  We don't currently have a single catalogue search and the OAI repository is a chance to implement that in a human- and machine-queryable way.  It also ties in with our push to create a common basic schema for all our object records, with extensions for objects with more metadata or related media and authority records.  It's a bit daunting but the possibilities are very cool.



I've used OAI before (for &lt;a href="http://www.20thcenturylondon.org.uk/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Exploring 20th Century London&lt;/a&gt;) and it worked well for getting data from a range of collections and content management systems into a single repository that could then be used as the source for the actual website.  It did mean an overhead in mapping fields, but we needed to do that anyway for the final website.  Having a repository instead of using a federated search also meant we didn't have to worry about slow response times from partner sites - especially smaller museums who already have a lower visibility in the project because they contribute fewer records.



On another note, some of the discussions at MW2008 have really made me wonder about well-implemented single search fields vs advanced search.  Advanced search might only be used by a small number of specialist researchers (and our research shows they always want that ability) but having well-defined fields means we can quickly build interfaces or mashups over those streams.



FWIW, I once ended a paper with http://www.laughinglibrarian.com/images/CeilingLibrarian.jpg but it was probably too obscure a cat reference and everyone just looked at me funny.  Kittens FTW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good write-up!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m in the middle of implementing an OAI repository so this is all really relevant (and my ramblings aren&#8217;t yet coherent).  The repository is a requirement from an external funder, but I&#8217;m hoping to use it to get lots of cool stuff in place at the same time.  I want it to also serve OpenSearch results, and to act as an index to every instance of our objects in various online projects.  We don&#8217;t currently have a single catalogue search and the OAI repository is a chance to implement that in a human- and machine-queryable way.  It also ties in with our push to create a common basic schema for all our object records, with extensions for objects with more metadata or related media and authority records.  It&#8217;s a bit daunting but the possibilities are very cool.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve used OAI before (for <a href="http://www.20thcenturylondon.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">Exploring 20th Century London</a>) and it worked well for getting data from a range of collections and content management systems into a single repository that could then be used as the source for the actual website.  It did mean an overhead in mapping fields, but we needed to do that anyway for the final website.  Having a repository instead of using a federated search also meant we didn&#8217;t have to worry about slow response times from partner sites - especially smaller museums who already have a lower visibility in the project because they contribute fewer records.</p>
<p>On another note, some of the discussions at MW2008 have really made me wonder about well-implemented single search fields vs advanced search.  Advanced search might only be used by a small number of specialist researchers (and our research shows they always want that ability) but having well-defined fields means we can quickly build interfaces or mashups over those streams.</p>
<p>FWIW, I once ended a paper with <a href="http://www.laughinglibrarian.com/images/CeilingLibrarian.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.laughinglibrarian.com/images/CeilingLibrarian.jpg</a> but it was probably too obscure a cat reference and everyone just looked at me funny.  Kittens FTW.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Solas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-548</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Solas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-548</guid>
		<description>@Jim - That's a really intriguing idea, to add DC metadata to the OpenSearch result.  Having done the work of mapping our collection data to DC, this would be easy and really expand the usefulness of the approach.



My only concern is with intensive searching and browsing each search comes back to our servers, whereas with OAI it would be running locally.  I haven't thought that through all the way yet, it might not even be a problem.



I'm planning tomorrow to set up a test installing of the Delphi toolkit from Berkeley to see what it thinks of our metadata -- that might be one further argument for an OAI approach so the semantics could be teased out of several collections at once.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jim - That&#8217;s a really intriguing idea, to add DC metadata to the OpenSearch result.  Having done the work of mapping our collection data to DC, this would be easy and really expand the usefulness of the approach.</p>
<p>My only concern is with intensive searching and browsing each search comes back to our servers, whereas with OAI it would be running locally.  I haven&#8217;t thought that through all the way yet, it might not even be a problem.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m planning tomorrow to set up a test installing of the Delphi toolkit from Berkeley to see what it thinks of our metadata &#8212; that might be one further argument for an OAI approach so the semantics could be teased out of several collections at once.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim O'Donnell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-542</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim O'Donnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-542</guid>
		<description>Re. 'what if the search results page changes?' - Maybe a &lt;a href="http://microformats.org" rel="nofollow"&gt;microformats&lt;/a&gt; type of approach would work here. Ask contributors to use standardised class names in the HTML of their search results, then look for those classes when scraping the page.



&lt;a href="http://opensearch.org" rel="nofollow"&gt;OpenSearch&lt;/a&gt; supports output of results as RSS or Atom too. That gives you some of the advantages of OAI, in that you can add your Dublin Core metadata to each item in the feed. We're trying this now at the National Maritime Museum - &lt;a href="http://eatyourgreens.org.uk/archives/2008/04/opening_up_muse.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;publishing RSS feeds&lt;/a&gt; extended with terms from &lt;a href="http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/metadata/pns/pndsdcap/" rel="nofollow"&gt;the PNDS application profile&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. &#8216;what if the search results page changes?&#8217; - Maybe a <a href="http://microformats.org" rel="nofollow">microformats</a> type of approach would work here. Ask contributors to use standardised class names in the HTML of their search results, then look for those classes when scraping the page.</p>
<p><a href="http://opensearch.org" rel="nofollow">OpenSearch</a> supports output of results as RSS or Atom too. That gives you some of the advantages of OAI, in that you can add your Dublin Core metadata to each item in the feed. We&#8217;re trying this now at the National Maritime Museum - <a href="http://eatyourgreens.org.uk/archives/2008/04/opening_up_muse.html" rel="nofollow">publishing RSS feeds</a> extended with terms from <a href="http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/metadata/pns/pndsdcap/" rel="nofollow">the PNDS application profile</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-547</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-547</guid>
		<description>Just to add to the comment stream: 1) great to see OpenSearch being implemented; 2) getting *anything* done with a consortium of 9 museums is a frightening and gargantuan effort for which the V&#38;A should be applauded 3) That's why I would have done it with a Google Enterprise 4) Please, please, make your final site and results available with a public API</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to add to the comment stream: 1) great to see OpenSearch being implemented; 2) getting *anything* done with a consortium of 9 museums is a frightening and gargantuan effort for which the V&amp;A should be applauded 3) That&#8217;s why I would have done it with a Google Enterprise 4) Please, please, make your final site and results available with a public API</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-546</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-546</guid>
		<description>I should probably fess up - I had already created the www.museumcollections.org.uk stuff, pre-session... but the point is that we need to be able to out-perform the Google Coop in order to make any of this stuff worthwhile...!



ps. I *could* have built it mid-session if I'd wanted to.. * cough * ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should probably fess up - I had already created the <a href="http://www.museumcollections.org.uk" rel="nofollow">http://www.museumcollections.org.uk</a> stuff, pre-session&#8230; but the point is that we need to be able to out-perform the Google Coop in order to make any of this stuff worthwhile&#8230;!</p>
<p>ps. I *could* have built it mid-session if I&#8217;d wanted to.. * cough * ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Terry M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-541</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 03:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.walkerart.org/newmedia/2008/04/12/mw2008-search/#comment-541</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the positive post Nate. We really think we are getting somewhere with this. We initially looked at the google co-op possibility but we just weren't getting back the information we required.



Mike - pity you're not still on the project since we could have done with your advice a few times recently. There will be partner time-out limits and caching involved which should help the usability of the final product you'll be glad to hear. When implemented within WebQuests it will only search over the partners involved in that particular WebQuest. Creative Journeys may well have a 'remove museum from search' option as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the positive post Nate. We really think we are getting somewhere with this. We initially looked at the google co-op possibility but we just weren&#8217;t getting back the information we required.</p>
<p>Mike - pity you&#8217;re not still on the project since we could have done with your advice a few times recently. There will be partner time-out limits and caching involved which should help the usability of the final product you&#8217;ll be glad to hear. When implemented within WebQuests it will only search over the partners involved in that particular WebQuest. Creative Journeys may well have a &#8216;remove museum from search&#8217; option as well.</p>
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